Talk:Pikmin limit

Onion discovery collision case

Intro

What enemies are capable of burying Pikmin in the Twilight River or Garden of Hope? I know I can check Pikmin (at least the New Play Control! verson) by being sufficiently insane and burying Pikmin with the Swooping Snitchbug, but for the life of me I can't find an enemy in Pikmin 3. Phineas81707 (talk) 06:03, 15 November 2015 (EST)

...Probably none, really. Plus, it doesn't matter much because even if you bury 100 Pikmin, you need to use at least one non-buried Pikmin to destroy the Arachnode, and three non-buried Winged Pikmin to pluck the blue Onion. — {Espyo^T} 10:52, 15 November 2015 (EST)

Wollywogs can bury rock pikmin in the ground, but I doubt that's what you're looking for. ^Talk 14:42, 15 November 2015 (EST)

No, it's not. They're not buried quite the same way (you don't pluck them). Judging by these facts, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that something weird is going to happen when I discover the Yellow Onion that later games fixed by making the scenario impossible. Regardless, it'll have to wait a short while, but I'll get to it. Phineas81707 (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2015 (EST)

Discovery: 100 buried Pikmin, 99 by the Onion, and 1 by Swooping Snitchbug (Forest of Hope, Pikmin 1) Red Onion is empty. Discovered the Yellow Onion... and now there are two Pikmin in the Red Onion. No Pikmin were destroyed, and considering the Snitchbug Pikmin was returned, I'm willing to guess it was the last two Pikmin buried that are returned (though, if you have one hundred buried Pikmin, it's not going to matter much which order they are returned). Phineas81707 (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Awesome! That's one less problem down. Really weird how it shoves two in the Onion. If you still have the save file, can you try this? Pluck one of the Onionside Pikmin and have that AND another Pikmin be buried by a Snitchbug. Maybe one "normally" buried Pikmin + any Snitchbug buried Pikmin get sent to the Onion? — {Espyo^T} 04:11, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Conducted experiment with two Snitchbug buried Pikmin, and then three Snitchbug buried. Always two Pikmin returned (although it does seem to be the case that it was the last two buried). As for the to-do, well, exactly that: why exactly are two Pikmin returned in the buried case, but one in the active case? Glitch? Or intentional feature? Phineas81707 (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Well, we can't really figure out why. Unless we ask the devs or have the source code (lolno). I'd say it's a glitch. This is such an unlikely scenario that they probably didn't give it much thought. — {Espyo^T} 08:38, 17 November 2015 (EST)

I had hopes. Now we can see why I'm not one of the technical editors. Phineas81707 (talk) 08:43, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Recap and Pikmin 3 initial tests

Ok so, to recap:

• In Pikmin
  • All Onions DO spit out a seed, as the discovery method and cutscene is pretty much the same.
• In Pikmin 2
  • Red Onion does spit out a seed, but you can't grow enough Pikmin to see what'll happen.
  • Purples have no Onion.
  • Whites have no Onion.
  • Yellow Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Yellow Pikmin are right there nearby, on a tree.
  • Blue Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Blue Pikmin are right there nearby, on the lake.
• In Pikmin 3
  • Red Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Red Pikmin are right there nearby, trying to rescue it.
  • Gray Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Rock Pikmin are right there nearby, captured inside the Medusal Slurker.
  • Yellow Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Yellow Pikmin are right there nearby, powering a cable.
  • Pink Onion does spit out a seed, but you need at least one Pikmin to free it, and I don't think there are any ways to bury Pikmin.
  • Blue Onion does spit out a seed, but you need at least three (five?) Pikmin to free it, and I don't think there are any ways to bury Pikmin.

Meaning that only Onions in the first game have 100 Pikmin whose behavior needed analyzing. Unless we can find a way to bury Pikmin in Pikmin 3... Also, in the first game, you can't grow enough Red Pikmin to get any weird behavior from the red Onion, and as for the blue Onion, there's no way to bury Pikmin. So in reality, the only time in the series where you can discover a new Onion, have it eject a seed AND have 100 buried Pikmin is with the yellow Onion in the first game. We should change the article to reflect that.

As for the current todo task of finding out how the game chooses what Pikmin to send to the Onion, I think the best way would be to call out like 99 Pikmin of one type and afterwards, one Pikmin of a different type. Or the other way around. With this, after some tests, we can at least tell if the game picks the first Pikmin that got released from an Onion, the latest Pikmin to get released, or something else, like a random pick. After we know exactly what Pikmin will get picked to go to the Onion, we can probably explore this further to, like having that one Pikmin carry a 1-weight object. What'll happen after the Onion spits a seed? Will the game pick a different Pikmin? Will the carrier Pikmin vanish? Will the object it is carrying vanish too? This oughta be fun. — {Espyo^T} 10:37, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Tested. Results:

• Experiment one: What Pikmin is returned in Pikmin? 50 Reds, 50 Yellows, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and a Yellow was returned.
• Experiment two: And if it's busy? 99 Reds, 1 Yellow carrying a pellet, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and it wasn't returned.
• Experiment three: What Pikmin is returned in Pikmin 3? 1 Red, 30 Rocks, 68 Wings, 1 Yellow, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and the Red was returned.
• Experiment four: And if it's busy? 1 Red carrying a pellet, 30 Rocks, 68 Wings, 1 Yellow, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and it wasn't returned.

We can see that it is the last Pikmin withdrawn in Pikmin 1, and the first in Pikmin 3. Carrying Pikmin seem to be ignored, but if I want to fully explore that, I'll need to find a cluster of things such that all 100 Pikmin are busy, and that will be hard to route (Remember, this means that all 97 Pikmin have to be carrying something at the instant the Flukeweed is pulled, because Onion discovery isn't as easy as it is in Pikmin 1). Phineas81707 (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Sweet. But I'm not willing to bet that it's the last Pikmin to be withdrawn in the first game. All we know is that you withdrew 50 Yellows as the last type, and one Yellow got sent back to the Onion. But this could've been any Yellow. Heck, it could've been any Pikmin on the field, picked at random (50% chance of it being a Yellow, since you had 50 of those). So can you try again, but with 99 Reds and 1 Yellow? Plus it seems kind of weird to me that they'd swap the order of preference for Pikmin to get sent back, between the first and the third game. In the meantime, I'll try to think of other crazy scenarios, like Pikmin stuck in a creature's mouth. Can't wait to see what kind of insane ways the game calculates what Pikmin to send back. — {Espyo^T} 04:01, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Yup. Scientific method strikes again: not guaranteed. Which means that further tests are near-meaningless for the first one. Which may also mean Pikmin 3 may need a re-check... although the fact that Pikmin 3 is easier to test and probably has a better error routine means that I trust that stable number a bit more. Will probably do a bunch of retests later. Phineas81707 (talk) 04:34, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Supplementary brainwave: we need to find a way to test if maturity has an impact. Phineas81707 (talk) 04:38, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Recap 2

To get our bearings, it might help to guess how the code works. It's probably something like this, for Pikmin 3:

• Every time a Pikmin spawns (is ejected as a seed, is called out of an Onion, etc.), add it to the list of Pikmin. The first to spawn is on position 0, the second on 1, etc.
• Need to return a Pikmin to an Onion? Let's find one that can be returned.
  • For every Pikmin in the list (from 0 to the list's size), check:
    • Is this Pikmin free? If so, send this Pikmin to the Onion and finish this. If not, check the next one.

Simple as that. That also explains why the game picks the first Pikmin. For Pikmin 1, it might just pick randomly over and over until it finds a suitable Pikmin.

Now, as for what type of other states we should check, I can think of the following:

1. If the Pikmin is idling.
2. If the Pikmin is with a leader.
3. If the Pikmin is buried.
4. If the Pikmin is currently in a leader's hands (before being thrown).
5. If the Pikmin is carrying (already checked).
6. If the Pikmin is in the jaws of an enemy.
7. If the Pikmin is working on an amount-dependant task (e.g. pulling a Flukeweed).
8. If the Pikmin is drowning.
9. If the Pikmin is transitioning between "rooms" (e.g. walking back to a Spiderwort).
10. If the Pikmin is spicy.
11. If the Pikmin has a bomb rock.
12. If the Pikmin is in a dirt mound.
13. If the Rock Pikmin is buried from being crushed.
14. If the Yellow Pikmin is holding arms to try to close an electrical current.
15. And like you said, if the Pikmin's maturity has any impact on the decision.

Wish I was at home right now to help test these. Honestly, I'd be surprised if the devs took into consideration all of these scenarios, or if one of them caused any broken behavior. Of course, since the Pikmin in the first game is randomly picked, it's no use checking there, so these task only apply to Pikmin 3 for the time being. We have to check them all, for science! — {Espyo^T} 06:55, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Ok, so I scienced some, and it turns out that a specific Pikmin does get picked in the first game. It's the one farthest away from Olimar (or from the new Onion, who knows)! I'll check the scenarios I listed above for Pikmin 1 then. At least the ones I can check comfortably (Dolphin is kinda limited here). Want to test those scenarios in Pikmin 3, Phineas? — {Espyo^T} 16:08, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Results

Ok, Pikmin 1 results time. If the farthest Pikmin is...

1. Idling, it gets sent.
2. With a leader, it gets sent.
3. Buried, that's a special case which I'll look further into tomorrow.
4. Currently in a leader's hands... is N/A since that means it's the closest Pikmin (or one of the closest, at least).
5. Carrying, it gets sent. If it's part of a larger group of carriers, the behavior is the same as if you whistled that carrier out of the object while the others are holding on to it.
6. In an enemy's jaws... couldn't test.
7. Working on an amount-dependant task... couldn't test (only cardboard boxes afaik, anyway).
8. Drowning, it gets sent.
9. Transitioning between "rooms" is N/A for this game.
10. Spicy is N/A for this game.
11. Holding a bomb-rock, it gets sent, and the bomb vanishes (it doesn't respawn at its original spot).
12. In a dirt mound is N/A for this game.
13. A semi-buried Rock Pikmin is N/A for this game.
14. An arms-holding Yellow Pikmin is N/A for this game.
15. A leaf, bud, or flower, it won't make a difference for the game.

I recorded my adventures through these, and I'll make a video tomorrow. — {Espyo^T} 19:12, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Yeah, about that... it's proximity based in 3 too. I'll still check the some of the other requirements, especially those not in the original, but still... oh, and there's only one light bulb in either Twilight River or Garden of Hope, and you need to light it to get to the Winged Pikmin unless you clip, and I'm not too good at the clipping thing. Phineas81707 (talk) 23:24, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Results for 3:

• Idling? Returned.
• With leader? Returned.
• Buried? Ignored.
• In leader's hands? Returned (the cutscene actually pulls the Pikmin from the leader's hands).
• Carrying? Ignored.
• Jaws? Still got timing problems.
• Flukeweed/Bamboo gate? Ignored.
• Drowning? Returned.
• Transitions? Timing problems (discovering Onions aren't quite instant enough).
• Spicy? Returned.
• Bomb-rocks? Returned, with the bomb-rock dropped.
• Dirt mound? Ignored.
• Rock Pikmin crushed? I believe it was returned.
• Current? As above, there aren't currents to test.
• In a bubble? Returned.

Now just too figure out how to put this information on the main page. Phineas81707 (talk) 01:27, 19 November 2015 (EST)

Oh, so you mean Pikmin 3 picks the Pikmin farthest away from the leader as well? If so, how did you get the game to pick the Pikmin in the leader's hand? As for the article, I think a table will work fine. And don't worry about the other scenarios. We can omit those that are really hard to pull off, because the table doesn't need to be complete. There's probably hundreds of scenarios, so let's just point down the interesting stuff we found and not dwell on the what ifs. If somebody in the future wants to try a new scenario, they can add to the table at that time. — {Espyo^T} 04:10, 19 November 2015 (EST)

The Blue Onion requires Flukeweed be pulled to access. Swarm 99 Winged Pikmin in that general area, and then run away and grab the one Pikmin on the shore. Beats Pikmin 1, where you can't get Pikmin anywhere near an Onion without activating it. Phineas81707 (talk) 05:02, 19 November 2015 (EST)

So you're saying it's actually the Pikmin farthest away from the Onion, not the leader. What if you're just holding a Pikmin when the cutscene plays in a normal scenario (less than 100 Pikmin)? Does the Pikmin get pulled out of your hand too? — {Espyo^T} 05:42, 19 November 2015 (EST)

In Pikmin 3, 1 carrying Pikmin will be returned if the other 99 on the field are buried. That's just one exception I've found. Scruffy (talk) 14:53, 20 November 2015 (EST)