454
edits
SupremeKirb (talk | contribs) m (→Pikmin 1+2 changes: on switchables) Tag: Mobile edit |
(new proposal) |
||
(21 intermediate revisions by 8 users not shown) | |||
Line 54: | Line 54: | ||
:::: At least now we have the Piklopedia icons from Pikmin 2 switch, that gives us the original artwork in the highest possible quality. And from what I can tell, they aren't AI upscaled either.--[[User:NintendoPanda101|NintendoPanda101]] ([[User talk:NintendoPanda101|talk]]) 11:36, September 10, 2023 (EDT) | :::: At least now we have the Piklopedia icons from Pikmin 2 switch, that gives us the original artwork in the highest possible quality. And from what I can tell, they aren't AI upscaled either.--[[User:NintendoPanda101|NintendoPanda101]] ([[User talk:NintendoPanda101|talk]]) 11:36, September 10, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::: But they aren't the original artwork, since they have a black border around them... — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
== Canon and regional differences on Pikipedia == | == Canon and regional differences on Pikipedia == | ||
Line 84: | Line 86: | ||
:::::: For your naming specific question, I don't see why we could not insert the scientific names of the creatures in "Names in other language", as a different table: it's a practice that already exists in area's page of 4 for example, to divide the name of the zone and the name of the base. In alternative, in the description of the scientific name it can be specified that the Japanese name is used in certain versions instead of the English ones. | :::::: For your naming specific question, I don't see why we could not insert the scientific names of the creatures in "Names in other language", as a different table: it's a practice that already exists in area's page of 4 for example, to divide the name of the zone and the name of the base. In alternative, in the description of the scientific name it can be specified that the Japanese name is used in certain versions instead of the English ones. | ||
::::::Also, changing the scientific name (for reference or otherwise) may not be only a Chinese/Korean issue: I'm almost certain that the scientific name for the Ancient Sirehound was changed in the Italian version, but I'll have to check again soon --[[User:BluePikminBestPikmin12345|BluePikminBestPikmin12345]] ([[User talk:BluePikminBestPikmin12345|talk]]) 05:18, January 10, 2024 (EST) | ::::::Also, changing the scientific name (for reference or otherwise) may not be only a Chinese/Korean issue: I'm almost certain that the scientific name for the Ancient Sirehound was changed in the Italian version, but I'll have to check again soon --[[User:BluePikminBestPikmin12345|BluePikminBestPikmin12345]] ([[User talk:BluePikminBestPikmin12345|talk]]) 05:18, January 10, 2024 (EST) | ||
::::::: Documenting the Chinese and Korean versions of the Japanese name would probably be a good idea, as well as changed scientific names if there are any, but that's more a topic for [[Template talk:Foreignname]] than here. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::: Hmm, I didn't know that some localized versions were sometimes translated from other localized versions than the original. In that case, we may have to handle conflict cases on a case-by-case basis, unless we can come up with some standard rules. As for documenting differences in other language versions, we can technically do that now, but it requires editors with the games in those other languages who want to document that kind of stuff. It's just not really feasible for it to become a standard thing, but it would be nice to encourage it. But I'm not sure how. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
:I'd like to ask if this would affect the classification of the Glowstem as belonging to the Glowcap family, or the Margaret belonging to the same family as the Creeping Crysanthemum as opposed to the Dandelions. Other family-related changes (Flint Bug, Mitite) were reverted in Pikmin 4, after all. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:59, December 30, 2023 (EST) | :I'd like to ask if this would affect the classification of the Glowstem as belonging to the Glowcap family, or the Margaret belonging to the same family as the Creeping Crysanthemum as opposed to the Dandelions. Other family-related changes (Flint Bug, Mitite) were reverted in Pikmin 4, after all. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:59, December 30, 2023 (EST) | ||
:: If we decide that it would be more clear to make these changes, then we could do those kinds of things. But we'd probably need to come up with standard rules to avoid everything having to be decided on a case-by-case basis. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
::: The unfortunate part is that things will need to be addressed case by case. The big ones right now would be incorrect family names, which would definately need the support of a group of people combing everything. Luckily, we have everything documented as being an incorrect translation, and we have (or at least HAD) people willing to go through and correct these annoying errs. Next would be the EVER oh so fun ACB vs HCB thing, which we also have everything documented. From there, any sort of minor issues would be corrected as they come forward. Hopefully, with 4 onward, we see a significant decrease in these large errs, especially with Japanese studios being now much harsher on localizers and translators in the industry. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 19:40, February 12, 2024 (EST) | |||
:One thing that's come to mind with this is Garden. Pikmin Garden is solely in Japanese, with the US site translating rather slowly, and UK basically getting nothing. In my head, I can see us simply tackling things with Garden vs the translations and going with that, leaving a section for each article. However, I understand this might not be the most desirable (tho Soprano, even you have told me to wait for the US site to wait for translations). Garden offers a lot of interesting lore, such as confirming Waterwraith's JP name is based off of Umibozu, and explaining why Wollywogs are called potato frogs. It even explained how the Man at Legs exists biologically. With allowing for JP info to be a thing and following through on this, we can catalogue a lot more information. I know youve stated the wiki should focus gameplay first, adding lore and such like this definately boosts people checking out the wiki, but also people's interest in Pikmin as a whole. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 23:57, January 26, 2024 (EST) | :One thing that's come to mind with this is Garden. Pikmin Garden is solely in Japanese, with the US site translating rather slowly, and UK basically getting nothing. In my head, I can see us simply tackling things with Garden vs the translations and going with that, leaving a section for each article. However, I understand this might not be the most desirable (tho Soprano, even you have told me to wait for the US site to wait for translations). Garden offers a lot of interesting lore, such as confirming Waterwraith's JP name is based off of Umibozu, and explaining why Wollywogs are called potato frogs. It even explained how the Man at Legs exists biologically. With allowing for JP info to be a thing and following through on this, we can catalogue a lot more information. I know youve stated the wiki should focus gameplay first, adding lore and such like this definately boosts people checking out the wiki, but also people's interest in Pikmin as a whole. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 23:57, January 26, 2024 (EST) | ||
:: This is more on the topic of how much media from outside the games should count as canon, which is different from regional differences but is worth talking about. In my opinion, all content from official websites that doesn't contradict the games is debatable canon, not full canon. If it contradicts the games then it's non-canon. While the information in Pikmin Garden is interesting, we shouldn't be documenting it at the same level as the games. But what do other people think about this? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
::: A good amount of Garden's information is already brought in to 4, for example, the whole thing with Horned Cannon Beetles being invasive to Armored, as well as them breeding mutations, is both on Garden, but also in game in the Piklopedia. However, other bits of info, such as explaining Space Dogs and what not, isn't so cut and dry. However, I do feel Garden should be treated as an official, first hand source because, well it is. It would be the same as documenting information from official artbooks or other such portions of media. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 19:40, February 12, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::Information from official media like that is considered debatable canon, according to the current canon policy. Are you suggesting we change this? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:34, February 12, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::::It may be important to change this policy since Garden is essentialy a "Word of God" canon. It provides information in a much more digestable manner, with most of the info being already present in 4's notes. Obviously, things like the Pikmin 4koma would be non canon, but Garden is seemingly an official Nintendo wiki, complete with 3D model resources and unique renders. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 01:17, March 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
:Since the topic of regional differences (especially relating to [[canon]]) is hugely unclear, I think a full policy to address this is required instead of stuffing it in along with [[Pikipedia:Canon policy|the canon policy]]. I've drafted one here: [[User:SupremeKirb/Localization policy]] - [[User:SupremeKirb|SupremeKirb]] ([[User talk:SupremeKirb|talk]]) 19:58, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
:: I think the general content of this policy proposal is good, but it still focuses too much on the Japanese vs. US English angle, when other localizations need to be considered too. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:24, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
::: I just don't know if that's practical or even feasible for Pikipedia. We already struggle enough with getting Japanese information, and the series is translated into a whole bunch of languages. Often the European language translations are based off NoA's or NoE's English first, and they don't always offer any new information. That being said, considering other languages can be useful, as mentioned in the {{hp}} example in the draft. What do you think could be changed? [[User:SupremeKirb|SupremeKirb]] ([[User talk:SupremeKirb|talk]]) 20:33, February 10, 2024 (EST) | |||
::: I mean, the big reason we're focused in on English vs Japanese is because A, the game is Japanese, and B, we are an English site. While, yes, other localizations need to be considered, we can't just sit around and wait for a policy change because we need representation from every language at the UN. Even then, we already document a good chunk of names and other sort of regional differences as is. I'm certain there are plenty of polyglot users who would be willing to contribute things if they were allowed to. | |||
::: I think SupremeKirb's proposal is the best bet we have moving forward. We can obviously make modifications and changes as we go, but I think it's bad faith to just sit on this policy and have it be perfect right out the gate. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 19:40, February 12, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::: I've made some changes to the draft policy. I do see that English and Japanese are the most important versions to document for us, but I've edited the page to clarify the priority order and when other languages are to be considered. What do you think of it now? We also need to consider the difference between regional versions and localization (see [[Talk:Region]]), and how this policy connects to other policies such as the canon policy. — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 20:34, February 12, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::: Do you have a link to the Draft Policy? I agree with your changes to the Region article being split in two, but IDK how or where to check the draft policy. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 01:17, March 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
=== The nature of canon === | === The nature of canon === | ||
Line 97: | Line 128: | ||
:::Timeline would be best, and if down the line, they pull a Zelda and start rearranging thing, having each game be it's own "block" would make things much easier to organize.--[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 12:53, January 26, 2024 (EST) | :::Timeline would be best, and if down the line, they pull a Zelda and start rearranging thing, having each game be it's own "block" would make things much easier to organize.--[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 12:53, January 26, 2024 (EST) | ||
::A timeline article is ideal. I'm iffy on the idea of splitting 3 separately from 1+2 (although obviously 2 is the only direct follow up to another game). But, I do think this is better than trying to treat all four games as one single timeline. 4 was the first game to really bring in contractions, so this is really the first time treating them as one timeline has stopping making sense. — [[User:Bossclips|'''Bossclips''']]<sub>[[User talk:Bossclips|''(talk)'']]</sub> 06:19, March 11, 2024 (EST) | |||
Pikmin 4 is not non-canon compliant. It is not strictly a reboot/retelling, it takes place before Pikmin 3 and it doesnt retell anything. The timeline is an easy 1 2 4 3, if you want further proof you can watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZwABSqkIeE&t=519s (not mine). We should remove all the parts discussing it to not be canon compliant. {{unsigned|PikminLover4587}} | |||
=== ''Pikmin 1+2'' changes === | === ''Pikmin 1+2'' changes === | ||
Line 108: | Line 143: | ||
::Re: buttons to change infoboxes: these are known as switchables and we've discussed their implementation on the wiki before for other contexts (particularly the ridiculous multi-game infobox stacks on treasure pages and the like). As of the last conversation, the general consensus is that while they are convenient, we should minimise JavaScript wherever possible and switchables require that to operate. [[User:SupremeKirb|SupremeKirb]] ([[User talk:SupremeKirb|talk]]) 04:41, February 7, 2024 (EST) | ::Re: buttons to change infoboxes: these are known as switchables and we've discussed their implementation on the wiki before for other contexts (particularly the ridiculous multi-game infobox stacks on treasure pages and the like). As of the last conversation, the general consensus is that while they are convenient, we should minimise JavaScript wherever possible and switchables require that to operate. [[User:SupremeKirb|SupremeKirb]] ([[User talk:SupremeKirb|talk]]) 04:41, February 7, 2024 (EST) | ||
:::Well, regardless then of Switchables, we should still prioritize the "most recent" version of treasures and locations being the main focus of the article, and then have alternate locations, models, IDs, etc in a separate section in the article. --[[User:Jpmrocks|JPM]] ([[User talk:Jpmrocks|talk]]) 01:23, March 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::An issue with doing it that way is that there are just so many factors to consider with it. One treasure could link to 5 different articles without a very strict rubric/criteria for counting as an "alternate" treasure. I.e., [[Lip Service]] and [[Family Raft]]. — [[User:Bossclips|'''Bossclips''']]<sub>[[User talk:Bossclips|''(talk)'']]</sub> 06:22, March 11, 2024 (EST) | |||
=== Structure of the canon pages === | === Structure of the canon pages === | ||
Some people (such as [[User:Flamsey|Flamsey]]) have commented that the way we document Pikipedia's position on the canon is quite strange, with some things documented on the [[Canon]] page and some things documented on [[Pikipedia:Canon policy]]. It is quite an unusual split and I'm not aware of any other game wiki that does things this way. Restructuring these pages to show the information in an easier-to-understand way would be a good idea, but how could this be done? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | Some people (such as [[User:Flamsey|Flamsey]]) have commented that the way we document Pikipedia's position on the canon is quite strange, with some things documented on the [[Canon]] page and some things documented on [[Pikipedia:Canon policy]]. It is quite an unusual split and I'm not aware of any other game wiki that does things this way. Restructuring these pages to show the information in an easier-to-understand way would be a good idea, but how could this be done? — [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 01:05, December 28, 2023 (EST) | ||
::I think it's not that odd. One demonstrates how canon is to be applied when writing while the other covers the topic like regular articles. I don't see an issue with it as it is now. — [[User:Bossclips|'''Bossclips''']]<sub>[[User talk:Bossclips|''(talk)'']]</sub> 06:25, March 11, 2024 (EST) | |||
== Treasure/Fruit and Enemy notes need a formatting overhaul == | |||
The formatting of the Notes section on articles about enemies and treasures that have appeared in multiple games is frankly horrid. There is absolutely no indication about where each note comes from, except for the ''Pikmin 4'' notes which have disambiguation parentheses of all things. Why does [[Cupid's Grenade]] have subheadings of Olimar's journal for the GCN and Wii releases, while the Nintendo Switch release is its own heading with ''Pikmin 3'' notes inbetween them? | |||
I think we should totally ditch the <nowiki>{{notes}}</nowiki> template and display the notes sections per-game. I created [[User:PopitTart/Sandbox#Notes section reformatting|an example in my sandbox]] of what this could look like a while back. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:37, July 15, 2024 (EDT) |