Editing Talk:Treasure Hoard

I'm trying to improve this by making the columns sortable properly (it looks like there's been an attempt to implement it, but strange things happen).  So far, I've got:

===Succulent Series===
{|class="wikitable sortable"
!NTSC #!!PAL #!!Name!!class="unsortable"|Real world object
|-
||1||1||[[Cupid's Grenade]]||Cherry
|-
||2||2||[[Sunseed Berry]]||Small Strawberry
|-
||3||3||[[Combustion Berry]]||Large Strawberry
|-
||4||4||[[Seed of Greed]]||Chestnut
|-
||5||5||[[Disguised Delicacy]]||Half of a Kiwi
|-
||6||6||[[Insect Condo]]||Apple
|-
||7||7||[[Citrus Lump]]||Orange
|}

(Click the icons at the right of each title to sort.)

but I'm not sure how to link each of the tables for each group up into one big one like it is now.  Is it okay to have series as separate tables, or should I keep experimenting?  Alternatively, all treasures could be in one table (sorting is cooler then as well), but there'd be no series subtitles.  Also, I need to learn how to have the last column non-sortable - there's no need to sort alphabetically by description. - [[User:Greenpickle|<b><span style="color:Green">Greenpickle</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:Green">(talk)</span>]]</sub> 20:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


I find that seperating the series would make more sense than bundling it all together. It's easier to sort- and overlook it that way.

Uh, about the column. I'm not sure if we need this. I appreciate your work, but in my opinion, we should sort it the way the game does. So, basically it should be sorted by the NTSC numbers. However, that would make it harder for those with PAL, and if we make it sortable, and then we could sort the in-game name aswell; with that we would be where we started: everything ecxept the real-world name. Well, sorry I'm not being a big help here; I'm just not sure...--[[User:Prezintenden|<b><span style="color:Gray">Prezintenden</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Prezintenden|<span style="color:Gray">(babble)</span>]]</sub> 12:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Basically, I think having the columns sortable, at least by PAL/NTSC numbers, would help compare PAL/NTSC treasures, or just sort it as your version does.  The default order still remains, it's only when you click one of the icons that the sort order changes.  It reverts to the normal order each time the page is reloaded.  What made me think about doing this was one of the entries on [[User:Discordance/to do]]. - [[User:Greenpickle|<b><span style="color:Green">Greenpickle</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:Green">(talk)</span>]]</sub> 19:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Aha!  Last column is now not sortable! - [[User:Greenpickle|<b><span style="color:Green">Greenpickle</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:Green">(talk)</span>]]</sub> 19:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

So what's the verdict?  Change or no?{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

Huh? What do you mean? I thought you changed it? It's sortable...

Uh, now that I checked it again... It doesn't really sort it in a understandable way. I can't find a pattern. Does one even exist? I guess with your comment you ment that you weren't finished with this? If you want to sort it, then you have my full support.--[[User:Prezintenden|<b><span style="color:Gray">Prezintenden</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Prezintenden|<span style="color:orange">(babble)</span>]]</sub>

I haven't changed the one on the page at all, only put this one here as an example.  I will change it then.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

Okay, I've done that, but I think it would be nice to have all treasures together in another table with 'Series' as another column, and all sortable together.  Should I put that on the same page, or make a new page for it?  Or is it a silly idea?{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

I'm having a hard time understanding you. I get that you want make a table where the sortable series are. You then pick a series and the items from that series show up. Those again are sortable aswell. I think I'm misconceiveing you; but if thats what you plan: sounds superb and ''very'' complicated.

Ah, wait, I read it again. Yeah, sounds good; but is it possible to make it sort primarely by series and then, uh, ''sub-sort'' it by any other column?--[[User:Prezintenden|<b><span style="color:Gray">Prezintenden</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Prezintenden|<span style="color:orange">(babble)</span>]]</sub>

:Yes, the default order would be whatever I put in the edit box.  If you're still unsure, I mean having this:

(obviously this is wrong)
{|class="wikitable sortable"
!Series!!NTSC #!!PAL #!!Name!!class="unsortable"|Real world object
|-
||Succulent Series||1||1||[[Cupid's Grenade]]||Cherry
|-
||Another Series||2||2||[[Sunseed Berry]]||Small Strawberry
|-
||Third Random Series||3||3||[[Combustion Berry]]||Large Strawberry
|-
||Succulent Series||4||4||[[Seed of Greed]]||Chestnut
|-
||Succulent Series||5||5||[[Disguised Delicacy]]||Half of a Kiwi
|-
||Another Series||6||6||[[Insect Condo]]||Apple
|}

as a separate table, only with every treasure in.  It would be sorted by default as the treasures are on the page now.  What I'm asking is whether it would be too much to have that on the same page, that it should be put it somewhere else.

I know!  I could have a hide box for it, so you could choose which to show, the treasures arranged in groups or all in one table!  Agree?{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

Wait, is there a 'hide' thing in the corner of this for you?

<div class="NavFrame">
  <div class="NavHead">[... This is the title of your collapsible content ...]</div>
  <div class="NavContent">
    [... The content you want to hide goes here ...]
  </div>
</div>
-{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

Sounds fine. Will the table be like the one you display here?--[[User:Prezintenden|<b><span style="color:Gray">Prezintenden</span></b>]]<sub>[[User talk:Prezintenden|<span style="color:orange">(babble)</span>]]</sub>

Yeah.  I think I'll just add it underneath the others; it'd probably look silly in a collapsible box and they don't seem to work anyway.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}
----

The link to "Non capitalization is an in-game error" won't go away, nomatter what I do. Is it just my browser, or is there an extra link object I oversaw?--{{User:Prezintenden/sig}}

:There are 2 tables now.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

<div class="NavFrame">
  <div class="NavHead">[... Test ...]</div>
  <div class="NavContent">
    [... TESTED! DOES IT WORK? ...]
  </div>
</div>
[[User:Fly Guy 2|Fly Guy 2]] 03:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we know they work now as I fixed the CSS a while back.  Er, want to tone down on the repetition?{{User:Greenpickle/sig}} 11:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

==Japanese treasures==
Should we note the japenese only treasures? I know a few such as the 'national high top battery' , the 'Akebono Pink Salmon tin', and the ' National NEO high top battery'. Theres also some sort of cap with a clover on it and a green thing which resebles a can opener (hope the link works). http://www.ene3.com/archives/GC/Pikmin2_wallpaper_03.jpg [[User:Joshazilla23]]

:Aren't they just objects put in promotional material as opposed to actual treasurse in the game?  To make changes, we'll need at least number and name, and you're just basing it off this image as far as I can tell.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

::While, on the Japanese Pikmin 2 site, the Courage Reactor is a High-Top Battery Other treasures are different as well. See [http://d.imagehost.org/0300/japanese_treasures.gif here] or [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/r92j/story/index.html here]. {{User:Volatile Dweevil/Sig}}

== Carrying weight ==

Should we add the weight of the treasures to the charts, and what is the difference in the NTSC and PAL versions and what do they mean?

:The weight of each treasure is in their own article, it's not required. And don't forget to sign. {{User:Snakeboss14/sig}}

For the other question, see [[Help:FAQ#What is this PAL and NTSC?|this]].{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}

== japanese pikmin 2 treasures ==

I saw a japanese pikmin 2 video walkthrough once and saw treasures that were in neither the american and european versions, along with some different branding. we should include hese treasures as well

:Yeah, I remember the general consensus being that we ''should'' include stuff from the Japanese version; the only problem is, this being the English wiki, you don't get many editors with access to it, and it's hard to come across the information otherwise.{{User:Greenpickle/sig}}


This page has every treasure difference appearance wise: http://tcrf.net/Pikmin_2/Version_Differences

== Page Redesign ==

I think that the current table for the treasures is not that informational. I think this would be a better design:

===[[Succulent Series]]===

{| class=sortable cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 border=1 align=center width=100% style="text-align:center; border-collapse:collapse; font-family:Arial"
! width=10% | Image
! width=15% | Name
! width=10% | NTSC #
! width=10% | PAL #
! width=20% | Cave
! width=15% | Real-world object
|-
![[File:P2 Cupid's Grenade Artwork.jpg|45px]]
|[[Cupid's Grenade]]
|1
|1
|[[Snagret Hole]]
|Cherry
|}

It would be collapsible, like is now and would be separated by series. We could also do away with the [[Treasure Hoard#Treasures|treasures section]] since it is basically a carbon copy of the information above. Any thoughts, concerns? <span style="border:2px solid #001;background-color:#00BFFF;font-timesnewroman;">
[[User:Pikmin1254|'''<span style="color:blue;">Pikmin</span>''']][[User talk:Pikmin1254|'''<span style="color:#800080;">1254</span>''']]

:Great idea! If everyone else approves I'll start making transparent images for the treasures. And Maybe the cave section should be changed to area/cave and carry weights could be added. {{User:Volatile Dweevil/Sig}}

::Agreed. We need those pictures. {{User|Bulborb63}}

:::I have a couple of concerns.  First, the full treasure table is so a sortable list of every treasure exists - for those wanting the convenience of finding the heaviest, for example.  Second, adding an image to every row would make the page much larger, so you could see far fewer treasures together.  I have a couple of ideas of solutions, though; no time now, but I'll look at it later.  Having that 'cave' (should be 'location') field is great, though. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

::::I like the idea actually, to be honest. Green, the easiest way to solve that problem of "Too much images" is to make it collapsible. That way, you can easily show and hide it. --{{User:Gamefreak75/Sig}}

:::::...But then you can't see it: you might want to see lots of treasures together.  Also, value in Pokos as a column, right? <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

::::::If we're worried about pictures couldn't the pictures be collapsable? So you only see it if you want to? [[User:Crystal lucario|Crystal lucario]]

:::::::Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I said I'd look at it later.  I'll try to write some code that lets us define collapsible columns in tables. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

How about we add the value in pokos? Thought that would make it a bit longer. {{User:Snakeboss14/sig}}

:Hah, I suggested that three comments ago. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

::I know, it was sort of an indirect way of supporting you. {{User:Snakeboss14/sig}}

Okay, how about [[User:Greenpickle/test|this]]?  First, you may have to bypass your cache (follow the instructions at the top of [[MediaWiki:Common.js|here]]).  Now, does it work for everyone?  The show/hide images are hardly final, just something I used for testing.  The way the names are shown at the top (bullet points) should change too; I just didn't know how it would look best - ideas? <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

:Well, it works.<!--I like it.--> {{User:Volatile Dweevil/Sig}}

::...Why did you comment out 'I like it.'? <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

:::Well, putting "I like it" was totally unnecessary, but I didn't want to be all grim and uncaring either. {{User:Volatile Dweevil/Sig}}

::::No value or location where it's found? {{User:Snakeboss14/sig}}

:::::Oh, that wasn't meant to be a prototype for the content, but for tabbing between the two sets of tables and hiding the images column.  Yeah, locations and value are good to include; anything else? <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

Okay, I think table.hideable is ready to use now.  You can start replacing the thumbnail images we have with rendered ones and amending the series tables and all-in-one table with image, location and value columns (though I disagree with moving name before number).  In a couple of days, time permitting, I might hack something together to do it automatically, if no-one's made the effort. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

Oh, and weight and max. carriers.  Use the infoboxes. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

Done for the big table, and it'll be easy enough to extract the smaller ones - but yeah, it's going to end up huge in the edit window (70k now).  I guess we should get rid of one, but which?  I still prefer the big table for being all-inclusive, especially with regard to sorting, and see no reason for having the small ones. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

:Which is which? {{User:Snakeboss14/sig}}

::The big table is the table that's big, and the small tables are the tables that are small. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

Any progress? <span style="border:2px solid #001;background-color:#00BFFF;font-timesnewroman;">
[[User:Pikmin1254|<b><span style="color:blue;">Pikmin</span></b>]][[User talk:Pikmin1254|<b><span style="color:#800080;">1254]]</span></b>

:No-one answered my question as to whether we should get rid of one set of treasures (series or big table). <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

::Anyone else got an opinion on this yet? <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

:::From the point where the question has been asked, and a couple of months had passed, I think it's safe to say that one user may change it as s/he pleases, seeing as no one else objected since the question was put. Huh... what's the question again? I'm not reading through all this text... '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 07:29, 28 June 2011 (EDT)

::::"Done for the big table, and it'll be easy enough to extract the smaller ones - but yeah, it's going to end up huge in the edit window (70k now).  I guess we should get rid of one, but which?  I still prefer the big table for being all-inclusive, especially with regard to sorting, and see no reason for having the small ones." <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span>

:::::Ah. Well, the big table can already sort stuff by series, so the small tables are definitely useless. '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 09:05, 28 June 2011 (EDT)

::::::Seems no-one else cares, so I'm removing the small tables now. <span style="font-family:times;">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#080;">G</span>]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050;">P</span>]]'''''</span> 06:15, 25 July 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Looks good. --{{User:Gamefreak75/Sig}}

== Formatting ==

Why are there so many span styles when it comes to the Pokos, weight, and max carriers? Aren't those not needed? It doesn't really seem to affect the text that much at all; it's just a bunch of coding. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. {{User:PikminFanatic23/sig}}

:We ended up discussing this in the IRC, but just for the record: they act as sort keys.  They're relics from when MediaWiki's sorting wasn't smart and always sorted as strings (alphabetically, not numerically).  Managed to fix it all with data-sort-type=number. <span style="font-family:times;color:#080">'''''[[User:Greenpickle|G]][[User talk:Greenpickle|<span style="color:#050">P</span>]]'''''</span> 08:43, 25 June 2013 (EDT)

== Japanese Only Treasures ==

I finally extracted the names of the Japanese only treasures (as the exact Japanese characters displayed in the game). I want to make pages for them, but I'm not sure how I should do it. Should I make the page names the exact Japanese text or something that us English users can actually search for? I could provide a romanization or rough English translation, though neither of these would be "official" as no officials names in Latin characters were made by the localization team. Any advice? [[User:GreenPikmin|GreenPikmin]] ([[User talk:GreenPikmin|talk]]) 03:17, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:I knew this day would come eventually... Well, I'd say we should do what other NIWA wikis do in similar situations. The Japanese title probably wouldn't work well, specially because people would never be able to access it outside of links, unless they're savvy enough to type Japanese characters. Romanized would remove the problem of us speculating over a name, but would also make the titles harder to understand and memorize. Again, let's check what other wikis do. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 12:12, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::I'm thinking that for now we could do what was done with Ujadani and use the best translation we can get. I'd gladly pay for a live human translation service to do it. Shouldn't cost much for 26 treasure names + 1 series name. [[User:GreenPikmin|GreenPikmin]] ([[User talk:GreenPikmin|talk]]) 13:16, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:::I think so too. Though I don't think we need to go that far. At least for now, we should stick with plausible names. We have a [[Pikipedia:Japanese|Japanese disclaimer]] which, although cheap, at least excuses us for not using 100% accurate translations. We should try to get accurate translations, but they're very low priority. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 13:21, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::::I just added what I have so far. You'll see that some of the translations are pretty acceptable and probably accurate while others are horrendous. I'll see what I can do about them. [[User:GreenPikmin|GreenPikmin]] ([[User talk:GreenPikmin|talk]]) 13:48, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:::::Let me give it a try. I'll come back with results in some minutes. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 13:51, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:::::Done. I used all of my translating knowledge, but I think they're accurate enough now. Except for the "Zeni" one. I really couldn't wrap my head around that one at all. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 14:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::::::Good work. I did some searching and it seems that "zeni" means "money", which makes sense as a milk cap analogy to coins/yen. Also I figured out the unknown series name. If you can do a better translation than the one I gave that'd be great! [[User:GreenPikmin|GreenPikmin]] ([[User talk:GreenPikmin|talk]]) 18:03, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh yeah, "zeni" IS "money". Google Translate wasn't very helpful there, at first. I guess the name would then be "Highly Logical Money". Still iffy, but better than nothing... Anyway, the series name would be "Disk Mystery Series". &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 07:56, 16 March 2015 (EDT)

==Treasure policy proposal==
Here's what I think the treasure article policy should be based on what was already here and also what I felt the best organization method was when I did the Japanese treasures.

'''Same name, different model'''

These are the treasures with models that differ across versions. There should only be one article for each, but each model should have its own infobox even if no other properties are different. These all have the same sales pitch and most of these have the same journal entry. Those that don't will simply show the multiple versions in the same section. Most of them differ in location and a few of them may differ in value, weight, and max carriers also.

*[[Arboreal Frippery]]
*[[Decorative Goo]]
*[[Master's Instrument]]
*[[Time Capsule]]
*[[Drone Supplies]]
*[[Endless Repository]]
*[[Stringent Container]]
*[[Abstract Masterpiece]]
*[[Activity Arouser]]
*[[Hypnotic Platter]]
*[[Happiness Emblem]]
*[[Pondering Emblem]]

'''Same model, different name'''

These are pairs of treasures that have the same model, series, value, weight, and max carriers but differ in name, journal entry, sales pitch, and location. This is enough differences that they should all get their own article.

*[[Broken Food Master]] / [[Divine Cooking Tool]]
*[[Endless Repository]] / [[Perfect Container]]
*[[Stringent Container]] / [[Survival Container]]

'''Japanese treasures'''

Because this is an English wiki, we don't need to worry about the Japanese version too much. So we'll base our articles off the US and European treasures, names, and properties. However, the 25 Japanese treasures that completely differ in model and icon deserve their own article using the best translations possible. Some of these treasures appear to have English counterparts, but this should only be mentioned in each other's articles and not share an article. Many of the other 176 treasures translate to names that are significantly different from their English ones, but these names should be ignored and let it be assumed that they are intended to be the same treasure as their English counterparts (though I do have a list of all the Japanese names that I can post if anyone is actually that interested).

'''Treasure list default sorting'''

In case you're wondering how this page is initially sorted, the order is by in-game number with priority going US > Europe > Japan (technically Japan should come first as it was the original treasure hoard but this would probably throw users off, though this could be changed in the future). Each treasure hoard icon only gets a single row, so any treasures that share an icon will share a row (this is the best way to do this, honestly I've tried everything else). The order gets complicated where there are region exclusive treasures, so the best effort is made to keep each series together while making sure that all three columns stay in order when reading down the list. The only exceptions are the Nutrient Silo and Alien Billboard, as there's no possible way these can be put into one column without messing up the order of the other.

So there you have it. I modified many articles to abide by this policy and it seems like a good system for now. [[User:GreenPikmin|GreenPikmin]] ([[User talk:GreenPikmin|talk]]) 17:54, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

:I agree with most of it, but I have some comments. For the treasures that are completely unique in the Japanese version, they obviously deserve their own article, and as we discussed before, they get a translated name. For treasures like the Flame of Tomorrow/Fire Hope, each version gets its own article too, to be similar to the "same model, different name" policy.

:For the 176 Japanese treasures that are assumed to be the same as English treasures, we should disconnect from technical details and organization here for a second and look at it like any normal person would: if you showed a Flame Tiller in the English version and one in the Japanese version, to both a person that has Pikmin 2 context and one that doesn't, both would say it's the same treasure in a heartbeat. I think that's enough thought to be given to it: the 176 "similar" treasures are in fact the same treasures. The descriptions might change outside of Japan, but that's minor. All I mean is that we shouldn't treat them like they need special consideration; we shouldn't even overthink them.

:For the Treasure Hoard, nobody likes the current layout, and it's always confusing, so I had an idea just a few minutes ago. We have a simple Javascript script that can create buttons to toggle between content. We can just have three buttons to toggle between the three region's tables. For people with Javascript off, they'd just see one table right after the other, which would also be a solution. It would remove the weird criss-crossing of numbers and footnotes, without any drawback. The ONLY drawback is for Javascriptless users, who get a bit of a longer page, but even then that's only a minor and rare inconvenience. Let me know what you think, and I'll implement it. For reference, it's something like this:
{{switchable|US table|US treasure 1, US treasure 2|Europe table|EU treasure 1, EU treasure 2|Japan table|JP treasure 1, JP treasure 2}} &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 19:19, 20 March 2015 (EDT)