Editing Talk:Pikmin limit

==Onion discovery collision case==
===Intro===
What enemies are capable of burying Pikmin in the [[Twilight River]] or [[Garden of Hope]]? I know I can check ''Pikmin'' (at least the New Play Control! verson) by being sufficiently insane and burying Pikmin with the [[Swooping Snitchbug]], but for the life of me I can't find an enemy in ''Pikmin 3''. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 06:03, 15 November 2015 (EST)
:...Probably none, really. Plus, it doesn't matter much because even if you bury 100 Pikmin, you need to use at least one non-buried Pikmin to destroy the Arachnode, and three non-buried Winged Pikmin to pluck the blue Onion. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 10:52, 15 November 2015 (EST)
::Wollywogs can bury rock pikmin in the ground, but I doubt that's what you're looking for. [[File:AeroBlaze777sig.png|150px|link=User:AeroBlaze777]] <sup> [[User talk:AeroBlaze777|Talk]]  </sup> 14:42, 15 November 2015 (EST)
:::No, it's not. They're not buried quite the same way (you don't pluck them). Judging by these facts, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that something weird is going to happen when I discover the Yellow Onion that later games fixed by making the scenario impossible. Regardless, it'll have to wait a short while, but I'll get to it. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 00:51, 16 November 2015 (EST)

Discovery: 100 buried Pikmin, 99 by the Onion, and 1 by Swooping Snitchbug (Forest of Hope, Pikmin 1) Red Onion is empty. Discovered the Yellow Onion... and now there are ''two'' Pikmin in the Red Onion. No Pikmin were destroyed, and considering the Snitchbug Pikmin was returned, I'm willing to guess it was the last two Pikmin buried that are returned (though, if you have one hundred buried Pikmin, it's not going to matter much which order they are returned). [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 01:08, 17 November 2015 (EST)
:Awesome! That's one less problem down. Really weird how it shoves two in the Onion. If you still have the save file, can you try this? Pluck one of the Onionside Pikmin and have that AND another Pikmin be buried by a Snitchbug. Maybe one "normally" buried Pikmin + any Snitchbug buried Pikmin get sent to the Onion? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:11, 17 November 2015 (EST)
::Conducted experiment with two Snitchbug buried Pikmin, and then three Snitchbug buried. Always two Pikmin returned (although it does seem to be the case that it was the ''last'' two buried). As for the to-do, well, exactly that: ''why'' exactly are two Pikmin returned in the buried case, but one in the active case? Glitch? Or intentional feature? [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 05:15, 17 November 2015 (EST)
:::Well, we can't really figure out why. Unless we ask the devs or have the source code (lolno). I'd say it's a glitch. This is such an unlikely scenario that they probably didn't give it much thought. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 08:38, 17 November 2015 (EST)
::::I had hopes. Now we can see why I'm not one of the technical editors. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 08:43, 17 November 2015 (EST)

===Recap and ''Pikmin 3'' initial tests===
Ok so, to recap:
*In ''Pikmin''
**All Onions '''DO''' spit out a seed, as the discovery method and cutscene is pretty much the same.
*In ''Pikmin 2''
**Red Onion does spit out a seed, but you can't grow enough Pikmin to see what'll happen.
**Purples have no Onion.
**Whites have no Onion.
**Yellow Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Yellow Pikmin are right there nearby, on a tree.
**Blue Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Blue Pikmin are right there nearby, on the lake.
*In ''Pikmin 3''
**Red Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Red Pikmin are right there nearby, trying to rescue it.
**Gray Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Rock Pikmin are right there nearby, captured inside the Medusal Slurker.
**Yellow Onion doesn't spit out a seed, as the Yellow Pikmin are right there nearby, powering a cable.
**Pink Onion does spit out a seed, but you need at least one Pikmin to free it, and I don't think there are any ways to bury Pikmin.
**Blue Onion does spit out a seed, but you need at least three (five?) Pikmin to free it, and I don't think there are any ways to bury Pikmin.

Meaning that only Onions in the first game have 100 Pikmin whose behavior needed analyzing. Unless we can find a way to bury Pikmin in Pikmin 3... Also, in the first game, you can't grow enough Red Pikmin to get any weird behavior from the red Onion, and as for the blue Onion, there's no way to bury Pikmin. So in reality, the only time in the series where you can discover a new Onion, have it eject a seed AND have 100 buried Pikmin is with the yellow Onion in the first game. We should change the article to reflect that.

As for the current todo task of finding out how the game chooses what Pikmin to send to the Onion, I think the best way would be to call out like 99 Pikmin of one type and afterwards, one Pikmin of a different type. Or the other way around. With this, after some tests, we can at least tell if the game picks the first Pikmin that got released from an Onion, the latest Pikmin to get released, or something else, like a random pick. After we know exactly what Pikmin will get picked to go to the Onion, we can probably explore this further to, like having that one Pikmin carry a 1-weight object. What'll happen after the Onion spits a seed? Will the game pick a different Pikmin? Will the carrier Pikmin vanish? Will the object it is carrying vanish too? This oughta be fun. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 10:37, 17 November 2015 (EST)
:Tested. Results:
*Experiment one: What Pikmin is returned in Pikmin? 50 Reds, 50 Yellows, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and a Yellow was returned.
*Experiment two: And if it's busy? 99 Reds, 1 Yellow carrying a pellet, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and it wasn't returned.
*Experiment three: What Pikmin is returned in Pikmin 3? 1 Red, 30 Rocks, 68 Wings, 1 Yellow, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and the Red was returned.
*Experiment four: And if it's busy? 1 Red carrying a pellet, 30 Rocks, 68 Wings, 1 Yellow, in that order. Discover Blue Pikmin... and it wasn't returned.
We can see that it is the last Pikmin withdrawn in Pikmin 1, and the first in Pikmin 3. Carrying Pikmin seem to be ignored, but if I want to fully explore that, I'll need to find a cluster of things such that all 100 Pikmin are busy, and that will be hard to route (Remember, this means that all 97 Pikmin have to be carrying something at the instant the Flukeweed is pulled, because Onion discovery isn't as easy as it is in Pikmin 1). [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 21:07, 17 November 2015 (EST)

:Sweet. But I'm not willing to bet that it's the last Pikmin to be withdrawn in the first game. All we know is that you withdrew 50 Yellows as the last type, and one Yellow got sent back to the Onion. But this could've been any Yellow. Heck, it could've been any Pikmin on the field, picked at random (50% chance of it being a Yellow, since you had 50 of those). So can you try again, but with 99 Reds and 1 Yellow? Plus it seems kind of weird to me that they'd swap the order of preference for Pikmin to get sent back, between the first and the third game. In the meantime, I'll try to think of other crazy scenarios, like Pikmin stuck in a creature's mouth. Can't wait to see what kind of insane ways the game calculates what Pikmin to send back. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:01, 18 November 2015 (EST)

::Yup. Scientific method strikes again: not guaranteed. Which means that further tests are near-meaningless for the first one. Which may also mean Pikmin 3 may need a re-check... although the fact that Pikmin 3 is easier to test and probably has a better error routine means that I trust that stable number a bit more. Will probably do a bunch of retests later. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 04:34, 18 November 2015 (EST)
::Supplementary brainwave: we need to find a way to test if [[maturity]] has an impact. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 04:38, 18 November 2015 (EST)

===Recap 2===
To get our bearings, it might help to guess how the code works. It's probably something like this, for Pikmin 3:
:*Every time a Pikmin spawns (is ejected as a seed, is called out of an Onion, etc.), add it to the list of Pikmin. The first to spawn is on position 0, the second on 1, etc.
:*Need to return a Pikmin to an Onion? Let's find one that can be returned.
:**For every Pikmin in the list (from 0 to the list's size), check:
:***Is this Pikmin free? If so, send this Pikmin to the Onion and finish this. If not, check the next one.

Simple as that. That also explains why the game picks the first Pikmin. For Pikmin 1, it might just pick randomly over and over until it finds a suitable Pikmin.

Now, as for what type of other states we should check, I can think of the following:
#If the Pikmin is idling.
#If the Pikmin is with a leader.
#If the Pikmin is buried.
#If the Pikmin is currently in a leader's hands (before being [[throw]]n).
#If the Pikmin is carrying (already checked).
#If the Pikmin is in the jaws of an enemy.
#If the Pikmin is working on an amount-dependant task (e.g. pulling a Flukeweed).
#If the Pikmin is drowning.
#If the Pikmin is transitioning between "rooms" (e.g. walking back to a Spiderwort).
#If the Pikmin is spicy.
#If the Pikmin has a bomb rock.
#If the Pikmin is in a [[dirt mound]].
#If the Rock Pikmin is buried from being crushed.
#If the Yellow Pikmin is holding arms to try to close an electrical current.
#And like you said, if the Pikmin's maturity has any impact on the decision.

Wish I was at home right now to help test these. Honestly, I'd be surprised if the devs took into consideration all of these scenarios, or if one of them caused any broken behavior. Of course, since the Pikmin in the first game is randomly picked, it's no use checking there, so these task only apply to Pikmin 3 for the time being. We have to check them all, for science! &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 06:55, 18 November 2015 (EST)

:Ok, so I scienced some, and it turns out that a specific Pikmin does get picked in the first game. It's the one farthest away from Olimar (or from the new Onion, who knows)! I'll check the scenarios I listed above for Pikmin 1 then. At least the ones I can check comfortably (Dolphin is kinda limited here). Want to test those scenarios in Pikmin 3, Phineas? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 16:08, 18 November 2015 (EST)

===Results===
Ok, Pikmin 1 results time. If the farthest Pikmin is...
#Idling, it gets sent.
#With a leader, it gets sent.
#Buried, that's a special case which I'll look further into tomorrow.
#Currently in a leader's hands... is N/A since that means it's the closest Pikmin (or one of the closest, at least).
#Carrying, it gets sent. If it's part of a larger group of carriers, the behavior is the same as if you whistled that carrier out of the object while the others are holding on to it.
#In an enemy's jaws... couldn't test.
#Working on an amount-dependant task... couldn't test (only cardboard boxes afaik, anyway).
#Drowning, it gets sent.
#Transitioning between "rooms" is N/A for this game.
#Spicy is N/A for this game.
#Holding a bomb-rock, it gets sent, and the bomb vanishes (it doesn't respawn at its original spot).
#In a dirt mound is N/A for this game.
#A semi-buried Rock Pikmin is N/A for this game.
#An arms-holding Yellow Pikmin is N/A for this game.
#A leaf, bud, or flower, it won't make a difference for the game.

I recorded my adventures through these, and I'll make a video tomorrow. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 19:12, 18 November 2015 (EST)

:Yeah, about that... it's proximity based in 3 too. I'll still check the some of the other requirements, especially those not in the original, but still... oh, and there's only one light bulb in either Twilight River or Garden of Hope, and you need to light it to get to the Winged Pikmin unless you clip, and I'm not too good at the clipping thing. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 23:24, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Results for 3:
*Idling? Returned.
*With leader? Returned.
*Buried? Ignored.
*In leader's hands? Returned (the cutscene actually pulls the Pikmin from the leader's hands).
*Carrying? Ignored.
*Jaws? Still got timing problems.
*Flukeweed/Bamboo gate? Ignored.
*Drowning? Returned.
*Transitions? Timing problems (discovering Onions aren't quite instant enough).
*Spicy? Returned.
*Bomb-rocks? Returned, with the bomb-rock dropped.
*Dirt mound? Ignored.
*Rock Pikmin crushed? I believe it was returned.
*Current? As above, there aren't currents to test.
*In a bubble? Returned.

Now just too figure out how to put this information on the main page. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 01:27, 19 November 2015 (EST)

:Oh, so you mean Pikmin 3 picks the Pikmin farthest away from the leader as well? If so, how did you get the game to pick the Pikmin in the leader's hand? As for the article, I think a table will work fine. And don't worry about the other scenarios. We can omit those that are really hard to pull off, because the table doesn't need to be complete. There's probably hundreds of scenarios, so let's just point down the interesting stuff we found and not dwell on the what ifs. If somebody in the future wants to try a new scenario, they can add to the table at that time. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:10, 19 November 2015 (EST)
::The Blue Onion requires Flukeweed be pulled to access. Swarm 99 Winged Pikmin in that general area, and then run away and grab the one Pikmin on the shore. Beats Pikmin 1, where you can't get Pikmin anywhere near an Onion without activating it. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 05:02, 19 November 2015 (EST)
@@ Line 117: / Line 117: @@
 :Oh, so you mean Pikmin 3 picks the Pikmin farthest away from the leader as well? If so, how did you get the game to pick the Pikmin in the leader's hand? As for the article, I think a table will work fine. And don't worry about the other scenarios. We can omit those that are really hard to pull off, because the table doesn't need to be complete. There's probably hundreds of scenarios, so let's just point down the interesting stuff we found and not dwell on the what ifs. If somebody in the future wants to try a new scenario, they can add to the table at that time. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:10, 19 November 2015 (EST)
 ::The Blue Onion requires Flukeweed be pulled to access. Swarm 99 Winged Pikmin in that general area, and then run away and grab the one Pikmin on the shore. Beats Pikmin 1, where you can't get Pikmin anywhere near an Onion without activating it. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 05:02, 19 November 2015 (EST)
-:::So you're saying it's actually the Pikmin farthest away from the Onion, not the leader. What if you're just holding a Pikmin when the cutscene plays in a normal scenario (less than 100 Pikmin)? Does the Pikmin get pulled out of your hand too? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 05:42, 19 November 2015 (EST)
-====Extra tests in ''Pikmin 3''====
-PikFan23 and I have been conducting some experiments with the web holding the Winged Onion in Twilight River and we've found out the following:
-*If 99 Pikmin are buried and 1 Pikmin bombs the Winged Pikmin Arachnode and then proceeds to carry something as the cutscene begins (no matter what that something is), that one carrier Pikmin will be returned to the master Onion right when a Winged seed is ejected. The type and maturity of any of the Pikmin in that scenario do not matter.
-*The same goes for 99 buried Pikmin and one Pikmin who bombs the Arachnode and then begins drowning in the water. The drowning Pikmin will be returned.
-*If 99 Pikmin are buried and 1 Pikmin is caught in a bomb rock explosion that kills the Arachnode, that Pikmin will die during the Winged Onion cutscene, leaving one space open for the Winged seed.
-*If 98 Pikmin are buried, and 2 Pikmin are carrying items (I tried the two Dessiccated Skitter Leaves) when a bomb rock kills the Arachnode, the Pikmin furthest from the master Onion will be returned exactly when a Winged seed is ejected. However, the item will not actually be physically dropped until the cutscene is over.
-*(Suggested by En_Passant) If 98 Pikmin are buried, 1 Pikmin is in a dirt mound, and 1 Pikmin is carrying an item when the Arachnode is killed via bomb rock, the carrying Pikmin will be returned, not the dirt mound Pikmin. However, this might just may be an iteration of the "furthest from the master Onion" parameter.
-====Pikmin 4====
-I'm doing a more casual effort to get a good time more than research, but I did encounter interesting observation: When bringing the Blue Onion back, I had 30 Ice Pikmin and 10 Yellow Pikmin on the field, with a 40 Pikmin limit. The first time I attempted to bring the Onion back, a Yellow in my party got sent back. This would be the furthest Pikmin by the conventional rules, since the 30 Ices were freezing the lake. I rewound time and tried that again, this time the ten yellows helped to take back the Onion, and the Ices were called out of freezing duty. A Yellow was still the one chosen to be sent back, but now he was one of the ones close to the Onion. There are a number of possible factors to try and explain this (between Rewind, whether freezing a lake makes Ices immune to being returned, which Pikmin I have more of, or even which proximity clause they're using this time), but it makes me interested in the outcome- although not quite enough to go into right now. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]])
-==Pikmin 3 Extinctions==
-So I went to explore the capacities of having 100 buried Pikmin in Pikmin 3 and extinctions (part of the allure is in the fact that this is my first extinction!). To start, I went to the [[Distant Tundra]] and buried 100 Pikmin of all three types, and then went to the [[Garden of Hope]] and drowned every non-buried Pikmin I had. First discovery: '''extinctions are automatically fixed'''. So I had to leave them behind at sunset. Returned to the [[Distant Tundra]]... and the Onion '''did not manufacture any new Pikmin'''. I was shocked... until I realised that I had buried Pikmin of all three types, and thus the Onion knew I had Pikmin of those types available. So I re-did the burying stage, ensuring that no Yellow Pikmin were buried, and drowned all of the Pikmin again. Sure enough, back in the Tundra, '''the only new Pikmin was Yellow''', and that Yellow '''was kept in the Onion'''. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 21:02, 30 November 2015 (EST)
-:Nice! Come to think of it, I never had an extinction in that game either. We should try to gather more info one day, to fill [[Pikmin extinction]] with Pikmin 3 data. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
-== Pikmin 3 tests, map editor needed ==
-It is, at least in theory, possible to truly test what happens when an Onion is forced to eject a seed for a new Pikmin type with 100 ineligible-for-return Pikmin already in the field. As shown under [[Glitches in Pikmin 3#Leaders behaving like Pikmin]], a leader bouncing off of a [[Bouncy Mushroom]] onto an enemy will behave as a Pikmin and attack the enemy with equal strength to a [[Yellow Pikmin|Yellow]] or [[Blue Pikmin]]. This means that, should a Bouncy Mushroom be placed near the [[Winged Onion]], it is possible to have 100 Pikmin in an ineligible state as the [[Arachnode]] is defeated, and thus as the seed is ejected. This is stretching the "documentation of non-hacked behaviors" policy, but I believe it is a much better way to test vanilla mechanics than simply editing the game in real time to mark the Arachnode as defeated while the Pikmin are all ineligible. It would require both the know-how to place the Mushroom there as well as the patience to defeat the Arachnode with only one or two "Pikmin", however. --
-<span style="font-family:times;color:#080">'''''[[User:Amnesiacjournal|Amnesiac]][[File:User_avatar_amnesiacjournal.png|40px]][[User talk:Amnesiacjournal|<span style="color:#050">Journal</span>]]'''''</span> 20:29, February 26, 2023 (EST)
-== Yuji Kando's 2023 revelation about Super Mario 128 ==
-As we know, Super Mario 128 was widely believed to have influenced the first Pikmin game. However, the Super Mario Wiki article on the demo contains the following sentence:
-"However, ''Pikmin'' programmer Yuji Kando would later state in 2023 that ''Super Mario 128'' did not influence ''Pikmin'' in terms of planning and technology, as the team was not aware of its existence."
-Should this revelation be mentioned on this wiki? --[[User:Kirby Bulborb|Kirby Bulborb]] ([[User talk:Kirby Bulborb|talk]]) 05:49, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
-::That depends on if the claim is sourced with a citation or not. What is the source the Mario Wiki uses? I feel as though I recall incorrect information in official Mario books being ripped straight from a Mario wiki. --
-::<span style="font-family:times;color:#080">'''''[[User:Amnesiacjournal|Amnesiac]][[File:User_avatar_amnesiacjournal.png|40px]][[User talk:Amnesiacjournal|<span style="color:#050">Journal</span>]]'''''</span> 00:46, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
-:::Great point and I agree, which is why I brought the claim to the talk page instead of adding it to the article. I was slightly skeptical myself, as the Mario Wiki did not contain a source for the claim. --[[User:Kirby Bulborb|Kirby Bulborb]] ([[User talk:Kirby Bulborb|talk]]) 03:57, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
-::::The source is this recently-published interview with several developers about the development of the ''Pikmin'' series: https://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/ask-the-developer-vol-10-pikmin-4-part-1/ . This interview contains a huge amount of useful information, but it has not yet been documented on Pikipedia. &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 04:02, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
-:::::Thank you for finding the source! I hope the information in this interview will be documented here in time. --[[User:Kirby Bulborb|Kirby Bulborb]] ([[User talk:Kirby Bulborb|talk]]) 06:43, August 3, 2023 (EDT)