Editing Talk:Music in Pikmin 2

Phew... Okay, so I've been messing about with Pikmin 2's music files in hopes of understanding them a bit better. DebugYoshi and some other people have been trying to decode the .bms file format, but this time, I just tried snooping around the other files and reaching conclusions. This'll just serve as a bag of notes and... experiment results, I guess?
#<code>/AudioRes/BgmList.txt</code> seems to be unused because it is quite incomplete. I'll try tampering with it some time later to check if the game uses it.
#<code>/AudioRes/Banks</code> is where the sound effects of the game and the instrument samples are. There's more info on TCRF's Pikmin 2 notes page.
#<code>/AudioRes/Conductor.arc</code> has .cnd files. I don't know what they are, but opening them with a text editor reveals English names of instruments lying around, like "marimba", "orchpad" or "Dulcima".
#<code>/AudioRes/Key.arc</code> contains a folder for some enemies and objects with .bas files in them. The files are named after the respective object's animations, and because this is in the game's main audio folder, I can only assume that these files map what sounds to play at what points during an enemy/plant/etc.'s animation.
#<code>/AudioRes/PSound.aaf</code> is used with other Nintendo games' .bms files.
#<code>/AudioRes/PSound.asn</code> is unknown.
#<code>/AudioRes/Seqs/Seq.arc</code> stores the .bms files.
#<code>/AudioRes/Stream</code> is where the streamed music is. You can listen to this with Winamp and some plugins. Think of it like MP3 files.
#<code>/User/Totaka/BgmList.txt</code> is similar to the AudioRes folder's BgmList.txt, but more complete. This might be the one the game actually uses.
#<code>/User/Totaka/BgmList_*.txt</code> are files for every area in the game. At first glance, they definitely look like the songs (the .cnd files) that the game should use for each sublevel in each cave. But then you start noticing stuff like how the [[Emergence Cave]]'s second sublevel should play a metallic sublevel song, according to the US version's files. The only conclusion I reached is that the game does not use these files and must be getting its sublevel music data elsewhere. So I tried changing them. And the game refused to load. So... is it using the files, but ignoring their content? I honestly don't know. Also, to note is that this includes the songs used on [[newtest]] too. ...I suppose.
#<code>/User/Totaka/ChallengeBgmList.txt</code> is like the previous BgmList files.
#<code>/User/Totaka/StreamList.txt</code> seems to be the map between streamed music and its ID. It also includes the volume of each track, but this might be wrong, because the values are crazy. Some tracks have 60, others have 100. Would they really create the tracks with such wild volume changes that they'd need a configuration file in the final game to balance it?
#<code>/User/Totaka/trackMap_*_T.txt</code> could be something that relates the .cnd files's instruments with the different gameplay events (carrying treasure, battling an enemy, etc.) tha makes the music change. I have no idea which ones are used and which ones aren't.
#<code>/User/Wakai/trackMap_*_W.txt</code>: same comment as above.

Hopefully we can gather some more useful data about the way the music and works in the future. But for now, I'll place this information here so I don't forget. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 18:45, 17 July 2015 (EDT)

==Boss attack stinger order==
Hey Scruffy, are you sure that that's the order they play in? I only once took the time to look into it, and that was ages ago, but I think that they don't play in that order. I might just be remembering wrong. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 08:03, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
:I'm absolutely sure of it. I've checked with every boss many times, and every time it started with the one I labeled as 1 and went in sequence to 2, 3, and 4, then repeated. Even when there are two Burrowing Snagrets in one sublevel, the order is still global, meaning if one appears and activates "Short Attack 1," the second one appearing will activate "Short Attack 2," and so on. [[User:Scruffy|Scruffy]] ([[User talk:Scruffy|talk]]) 11:35, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
::Okay, awesome. You can probably add that info too, about it being global. I wonder if it resets between sublevels or caves, though? &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 16:24, 18 July 2015 (EDT)

== Secret Testing Range ==

I think it's worth noting that the music that plays on the second floor of Secret Testing Range is ''not'' Metal 2 but rather a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiW-AvVToE8 slightly different variation of it]. --[[User:Neini|Neini]] - [[User talk:Neini|Talk!]] - [[Special:Contributions/Neini|Contributions!]] 00:59, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

:To add onto this, Metal 3 is exclusive to sublevel 5 of the Snagret Hole. A very similar theme plays on sublevel 5 of the Subterranean Complex and sublevel 1 of the Cavern of Chaos, but it isn't Metal 3. {{User:PikFan23/sig}} 05:24, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

:: Um, except it is. Compare [https://youtu.be/QXBfOp0O3k0?t=22s this video of CoC 1] to [https://youtu.be/m6qz5nw0KG4 this part of Metal 3]. They're the same. In the future, please provide evidence instead of just making claims. --[[User:En Passant|<font color="666666">En</font>]] [[User talk:En Passant|<font color="666666">Passant</font>]] 13:04, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

:::checked the BgmList files and it does appear that the files are different
*snagret hole floor 5: cavemetal_10_4.cnd
*subterranean complex floor 6/collector's room floor 3/secret testing range floor 1: cavemetal_10_0.cnd
:::whatever differences there are must be very minimal (if at all) because I've never noticed them --[[User:Neini|Neini]] - [[User talk:Neini|Talk!]] - [[Special:Contributions/Neini|Contributions!]] 15:46, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

::::I considered linking to the first video, but I didn't because the sound effects interfere with the music, and I couldn't find any video that had just the music. Anyway, if you listen closely, you can tell that they're different: Metal 3 has some differently-pitched notes compared to CoC 1. It's very subtle, so you have to listen very closely. Also, thanks for looking at the game files Neini, since I can't access them. {{User:PikFan23/sig}} 18:05, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

:::::I'll look into the specific musical differences and note them in the article; perhaps recording the two to demonstrate the difference. Thank you for pointing that out! [[User:Scruffy|Scruffy]] ([[User talk:Scruffy|talk]]) 18:11, 31 August 2015 (EDT)

:I haven't had much time to look into this mess in detail, but I'll give my two cents. First, thank ''you'' Scruffy for going over yet another ridiculous ''Pikmin 2'' task. If that game weren't so convoluted in its details, we wouldn't have to be frying our heads over this... Second, could it just be a question of the random parts of the song being more prominent on one place and less on another? Maybe they're equally distributed, but the RNG is just messing with us? Finally, I wouldn't trust the game files on this one. I tried to read through the song listings a few times, and I always found something that contradicted what happens in-game. Nothing out of the ordinary for ''Pikmin 2'', sure, but until we can figure out what in the world the files are actually saying, we better not blindly follow them. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:01, 1 September 2015 (EDT)

::I've edited the BgmList files before and my understanding of them is that they do affect the music that plays in caves, but certain external factors can bypass it; i.e. the rest floor in dream den is supposed to play the hole of heroes music but a parameter in the cave file for that floor makes it play the rest music instead; this same parameter is used to keep music from playing (for boss floors). for the most part however, they can be edited just fine and will work in game; not sure why it's not working for espyo
*BgmList_Tutorial/Forest/Yakushima/Last - these contain the filenames of the songs that play on each sublevel of each cave
*BgmList_BgmTest - although it has the same format as the other BgmList files, this is more likely a reference page for all the .cnd files found in Conductor.arc - this is arranged into Soil (15 entries), Metal (15 entries), Conc (6 entries), Tile (1 entry), Glass (2 entries), Tsumiki (1 entry) and New (11 entries); that's a little over fifty .cnd files; perhaps unused variations of songs exist, or maybe they're just duplicates... at the bottom of this file is a bunch of developer instructions
::my theory is that the .cnd files draw information from the .bms (sequenced) files in Seq.arc, so all the "soil" songs are derived from cavesoil.bms, "metal" songs from cavemetal.bms, and so on. on the other hand, however, the "new" songs seem to each have their own unique .bms files. --[[User:Neini|Neini]] - [[User talk:Neini|Talk!]] - [[Special:Contributions/Neini|Contributions!]] 16:12, 1 September 2015 (EDT)

:findings --[[User:Neini|Neini]] - [[User talk:Neini|Talk!]] - [[Special:Contributions/Neini|Contributions!]] 18:43, 1 September 2015 (EDT)
#<code>caveconc_05_1.cnd</code> - nearly identical to ''Electricity'', but with an additional instrument line enabled; a pad similar to that in the Wistful Wild's spiderwort mix
#<code>cavemetal_05_0.cnd</code> - the variation of ''Metal 2'' used in Secret Testing Range is actually the normal version; the one used everywhere else is <code>cavemetal_05_4.cnd</code>; most of the other variations have different guitar samples and/or different note patterns. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQe8fnvmNc example]
#<code>caveglass_10_0.cnd</code> - identical to ''Yard''
#<code>caveboss.cnd and iron.cnd</code> - crash the game


::Okay so I just put in most of the internal names for the cave themes (the ones that are consistent between the game files and the game itself), and I also addressed the different versions of ''Metal 2'' and ''Metal 3''. ''Metal 2'' in the Secret Testing Range does in fact use a slightly different melodic instrument, and thus is worth mentioning. The special ''Metal 3'' (internal name <code>cavemetal_10_4.cnd</code>) in sublevel 5 of the Snagret Hole is identical to the normal  ''Metal 3'' (<code>cavemetal_10_0.cnd</code>); I've mentioned that difference for now in the article but we can take it down if that's not necessary. I just feel that any audibly different music that shows up in the final, unmodified game should be at least mentioned here, and things like <code>caveboss.cnd</code> and <code>iron.cnd</code> could be mentioned in unused content. That being said, I'm thinking ''Toybox 2'' and ''Toybox 3'' could be combined since they're so similar; ''Toybox 3'' could simply be called a different version of ''Toybox 2'', since only one instrument is altered and the internal names are so close (<code>new_08_0.cnd</code> and <code>new_08_1.cnd</code>). What do you all think? [[User:Scruffy|Scruffy]] ([[User talk:Scruffy|talk]]) 22:38, 1 September 2015 (EDT)
:::I think they should. If you think about classification, them having the same prefix and first number suggests that they're supposed to be variants. Also, sorry for the attitude PikFan, though we somehow both turned out being right. --[[User:En Passant|<font color="666666">En</font>]] [[User talk:En Passant|<font color="666666">Passant</font>]] 23:01, 1 September 2015 (EDT)

:::Sounds good to me. Documenting every song variation would make sense. No point going this far just to half-ass it. Neini, I didn't really try editing the files (I can't be bothered to go through all the tools every single time, and the more convenient "folder as ISO" functionality that Dolphin has is broken for me), I just saw some inconsistencies, like the one you mentioned about the rest sublevel in Dream Den having a song, but it being ignored, so I just assumed everything was wrong. Boy, what a mess this whole thing. Good luck fixing the info Scruffy... you're going to need it. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 04:02, 2 September 2015 (EDT)

::::I also agree with the documentation – better to have the variants mentioned under the main song instead of being given a section for themselves. As for ''Metal 3'', I could SWEAR that it sounds a little different in the Snagret Hole than other locations. If only I had something to record with... Well, it's interesting to know that there's a different file used in the Snagret Hole. {{User:PikFan23/sig}} 01:00, 3 September 2015 (EDT)

==Better name?==
There is a cave song that is labelled "Electricity" on this page, but wouldn't "Concrete 3" be a better name? In the main game, all the sublevels that use this theme have concrete cave units, but not all of them have electric elements.
It is also worth noting that part of the internal name for the track is "caveconc" with "conc" likely being short for concrete. Yes, not all of the challenge mode sublevels that use this song are concrete themed, other songs such as "concrete 2" and "toybox 1" don't match certain themes either. {{unsigned|2.216.12.102}}