Editing Talk:Koppaite text

== Name ==

"Koppaite text" seems like a misnomer. The article says it's "text written in the language of Koppai", but all the characters in these games seem to speak the same language, and the script has been used outside of Pikmin 3. But I can't think of an adequate name. [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 12:05, December 18, 2023 (EST)

:This has been discussed in the Discord channel several times, but a name has never been agreed upon. The key problems are that there is no word to describe all the alien creatures from the different planets in ''Pikmin 4'' collectively, and that it's not certain what type of writing system it is. Terms suggested for the first word of the title include "Hocotatian", "Koppaite", "Giyan", "alien", "intergalactic", "interplanetary", "interstellar", "secret", "galactic", "''Pikmin''", "space", and "unnamed". Terms suggested for the second word of the title include "text", "alphabet", "script", "cipher", "language", "writing", and "font". &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 16:55, December 18, 2023 (EST)

I definitely have thoughts on each of the proposed names, as discussed in the Discord, sl I'll share them here:
* Hocotatian, Koppaite, and Giyan: Each alone makes sense, but the language is used by a dozen planets and would be odd to single out one.
* alien: this one in particular I am not a fan of, as the term "alien" is already used offically in a [[Alien Billboard|quite different context]].
* intergalactic, interplanetary, interstellar, galactic, space: Not particularly wrong, I wouldn't be directly opposed to these options. However, they are rather generic sounding, and not unique to ''Pikmin''. Commander Keen (and later, Minecraft) has a rather famous {{w|Standard Galactic Alphabet}}.
* secret: I find this one the least suitable option, as the text is not particularly secret at all. It's obscured, yes, but the games never treat it like a secret to decode.
* ''Pikmin'': This is my prefered choice, as it is the fictional language used in the {{ps}}. I can see why it may be misleading since it's not a language used by the [[Pikmin family|Pikmin]] themselves, though.
* unnamed: a similar problem to the earlier space names, but even more ambiguous. I would begrudgingly accept this one.
--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:20, December 18, 2023 (EST)

=== Study ===
To better figure out a name, we need to figure out what this subject ''is''. I'll try to summarize our findings and conversations on Pikcord and Wikipedia from a few months back.

{| class="wikitable"
! rowspan="2" | A || rowspan="2" | In short || colspan="2" | Is it? || rowspan="2" | Why?
|-
! In-universe || Real world
|-
| {{w|Typeface}} || A font || No || More or less || Like Wingdings, there are actual Latin letters behind each glyph, it's just the shapes we visually see are some we're not familiar. Meaning it is a typeface. ...But does it really count when the same drawing corresponds to multiple Latin letters? There's nothing conceptually stopping a typeface from doing that... Either way, there's a handwritten variant too, so it's never just "a" typeface.
|-
| {{w|Encryption}} || Transforming a message into something seemingly nonsensical || No || Yes || From a real-world perspective it is an encryption &ndash; there is a real message underneath that real-world humans can't obtain unless they know how to decrypt it.
|-
| {{w|Cipher}} || An algorithm to de/encrypt || No || Partially || A cipher is just the algorithm. The only cipher in this entire thing is the little table we have at the top of the article explaining the glyphs.
|-
| {{w|Cryptogram}} || A decryption puzzle || No || Yes || There is a real message underneath, and you can only obtain it if you make use of a cipher. Cryptograms in particular are meant to be puzzles, which was the devs' intention.
|-
| {{w|Ciphertext}} || The graphical mess with a message behind it || No || Yes || The things a real human sees in-game are nonsensical to us, and have a message behind it, meaning they are ciphertext. It counts even if the alphabet of the ciphertext is different (see {{w|pigpen cypher}}).
|}

In short, there are three parts to this...
# In-universe: In universe it's just some normal everyday text the explorers write. And that text is English. Jury's still out on the fact that some of the glyphs represent multiple Latin English letters though.
# Real world: The glyphs are ciphertext to us, and the inclusion of this text in the game is a cryptogram.
# The bridge between the two: The cipher, in the form of the table we created that maps each glyph and Latin letter.

I defended that documenting it from an in-universe perspective makes no sense, since the only thing to say there is "it's text". The article is really about from the real world perspective, like [[health]]. Heck even the wiki in general is about documenting things from a real world perspective. Like I explained in the table, "cipher" is only part of the documentation, so something like "ciphertext" or "cryptogram" makes the most sense.

We tried thinking of including stuff like "alien" or "Pikmin" (both on Discord and above on this talk page), but it just ended up in a headache. Since I still defend this should be from a real world perspective, we could go with either naming the article just "ciphertext" or just "cryptogram", but if we want to include a category word, something like "Pikmin" (the franchise), "explorer", or "intergalactic" might work.

Since we're unlikely to ever find out for sure what to call this, and since new games in the franchise might throw a wrench in the works, I propose a name that's objective, in-line with how we should document it, and straightforward (not to mention interesting): '''Cryptogram'''. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 11:09, February 17, 2024 (EST)

:Very late reply, but I support "Cryptogram". The table above sums the situation up very well. [[User:CortexCPU242|CortexCPU242]] ([[User talk:CortexCPU242|talk]]) 04:28, June 8, 2024 (EDT)

:Even later reply, but this topic came back to mind since it's been unresolved for over a year now. I am '''very''' opposed to the choice of the word "cryptogram" just because it's technically accurate. Is the average person who wants to learn about the fictional language in ''Pikmin'' going to intuitively think ''cryptogram'' when searching for it? How could someone be expected to know its even something translatable at all unless they're already familiar with it? I particularly don't understand the "it's text" justification for not considering the in-universe perspective. [[Hocotate ship]] is "a spaceship owned by Hocotate Freight", and we call it that. The games never try to present the text as a puzzle or cipher, it's presented as an in-universe alien language, and it just so happens to non-diagetically act as a substitution cipher for the purpose of hiding easter eggs. We should name conjectural things based on how they are to the player, and in this case, it's a fictional language existing to give a sense of worldbuilding, just like [[zelda:Hylian (Language)|Hylian]] and [[inkipedia:Language in the Splatoon series|the unnamed language(s) in ''Splatoon'']].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:12, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

== #69 handwriting ==

In entry #69, the second word pointing to the [[Grubchucker]]'s pincers reads "scissors", due to Japanese "hasami" meaning both "scissors" and "pincers". [[User:2 B|2 B]] ([[User talk:2 B|talk]]) 13:03, May 7, 2024 (EDT)