Editing Talk:10 day run

== Day 5 Glitch ==
The glitch used in the ''Pikmin 3'' version of the guide is not documented in the wiki. I can't say I'm familiar with it either. Could someone else check to see if it is a real glitch? If so, it should be documented in [[Glitches in Pikmin 3]]. Then that sub-section can be linked back here for anyone who needs a more detailed or visual guide to properly pull the glitch off.
--[[User:TundraDragon|TundraDragon]] ([[User talk:TundraDragon|talk]]) 18:15, May 15, 2021 (EDT)

== Renaming to 9 day run ==
It's official: 10 days is no longer the minimum number of days to complete ''Pikmin 3''. It's now possible to collect the 2 underwater fruits in the Twilight River on the same day as the rest of the fruits in the area, bringing the minimum number of days to 9. Should this article be changed to reflect this?

I'd argue no. The trick required to complete the game in 9 days is incredibly difficult, and so far only one of the game's top speedrunners has been able to pull it off, and that's with the 5 extra minutes ''Pikmin 3 Deluxe''{{'s}} Normal mode provides. For most people, it's far more useful to see instructions on how to complete the game in 10 days, compared to instructions on completing the game in 9. Obviously the 9-day run should be mentioned, but it shouldn't be the focus of the article. Now, it is true that ''Pikmin 2''{{'s}} [[5 day run|low-day completion article]] has been renamed multiple times as glitches have reduced the minimum number of days to collect all treasures. But the difference there is that ''Pikmin 2''{{'s}} low-day run has always been difficult and impractical, and the added glitches have only made it more so. ''Pikmin 3''{{'s}} 10-day run is much easier and a more integral part of the game, considering it's informed by the basic structure of the game and even acknowledged by the in-game global leaderboard. In my opinion, this article should stay as [[10 day run]] and not be renamed. What do you think? &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 18:55, June 16, 2022 (EDT)

:The idea of the lowest-day run articles is to document the lowest amount of days possible, and how those runs work. Even if it was TAS-only, it'd still probably be right to change the article to focus on a TAS-only run. The fact that this one is human-doable, and has even been confirmed to be completed, absolutely make it so the current official low-day run is 9 days. I never really saw these articles as DYI tutorials, especially because if a player wants to try a low-day run, they ''need'' to master several hard tricks and strategies, no matter the game. The speedrunning Discord server is the correct place to go for instructions on how to master those skills, and on how beat a specific-day run, not Pikipedia. Pikipedia's just worried about documenting the facts: that the lowest amount of days that the game can be completed in without modifications is 9 days, and that the general distribution of days is XYZ.
:That said however, I think we should probably split the article, right? a 9-day run is not possible in Pikmin 3, only in Deluxe. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 09:35, June 17, 2022 (EDT)

::A 9-day run is possible in the original, it's just much more difficult since you have 5 less minutes per day. But I have a bigger point to make. These challenge run articles try to strike a difficult balance between being documentations of what's possible and being strategy guides. The [[5 day run]] article is mostly about documentation, while the [[Zero death challenge]] article is much more of a guide. I think the guides are important, as these runs can be fun and interesting, but often the top-level challenge runs can become too difficult to allow for practical guides for normal players. This is why I have an alternative proposal: document alternative versions of challenge runs in the same article. So this article would document how to complete the game in 10 days and 9 days, and perhaps the 7-day run could be combined into this article too, as it's an alternate way to complete the game in the fewest days. ''Pikmin 2''{{'s}} low-day run article would document how to do it in 8 days, 7 days, 6 days, and 5 days, and could also document the fastest ways to pay off the debt. And the low-Pikmin-count articles would document all the different configurations of the challenge you could use. Doing this would require renaming all the articles, and would probably introduce some messy-looking if-statements into the guides. But I think it's the best way moving forward to document these challenge runs, as there isn't just a single version of each challenge, there are multiple depending on what tricks and constraints you want to use. &mdash; [[User:Soprano|'''Soprano''']]<sub>[[User talk:Soprano|''(talk)'']]</sub> 19:47, June 17, 2022 (EDT)

:::As for actually making things possible to follow for casual players, I have a few counter-arguments. The pages were never made with that goal in the first place; most low-day articles on the wiki just give outlines, and whatever few guides exist are aimed at high-level players, using a lot of technical jargon and glossing over low- and mid-level techniques and procedures. Just like how the guides aren't aimed at lower-level players, the runs themselves aren't either. Pikmin games are very demanding in terms of low-day runs, and only the high-level players do it. In fact, these high-level players usually gather around the speedrunning communities to discuss this, since those do a better job at helping people performing those runs than Pikipedia.
:::As you increase the number of required days it becomes more accessible to lower-level players, but there are a lot of arbitrary thresholds. At what point is a run though to be accessible? At what point should we stop documenting them because they become trivial runs? This is an entire rabbit hole that we're not equipped to answer, nor are we meant to answer. Plus as a casual reader that's not interested in running, which make up the majority, you would just read the lowest day section so you'd learn what things are skipped, what areas manage to be completed quickly, what tricks are employed, and that's it. There's no interest in seeing documentation of a slower run. If players want help with ''performing'' a specific-number-of-day completion, they should go to the right places for it, not Pikipedia's overview bullet points.
:::As for the other articles, they are a bit different in nature. Something like a zero-death run can be achieved in multiple ways, and doesn't require mastery of the games, so it's normal for the wiki to tackle it differently. Plus there's nothing objective to document as an outline except for "all days: play without Pikmin dying", so no wonder a few tips are placed here and there. &mdash; '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 09:48, August 13, 2022 (EDT)